Woo rogues

[Assault]

Dunno if anyone but me and Jackal will care, and I haven't looked at EJ or anything like that, so I might be missing something, but here's some spec's I see.

Mutilate (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0050050050000000000000000000305323005312100 50210332013510020000000000000000000000000): This spec seems pretty no-brainer to me for PvE dps, given that a ret pally is available to provide a 3% bonus crit to the raid. The only real tradeoffs I see are between Improved Eviscerate, Improved Poisons and Murder in Assassination and Relentless Strikes in Subtlety and perhaps Improved Slice and Dice in Combat.

You'll get to 5 combo points with Seal Fate more often than your rupture will tick out, particularly with the rupture glyph, especially considering you won't refresh SnD except with eviscerate, so I guess you could use eviscerate quite a bit. On the other hand, bonus poison application from Imp Poisons is not the worst talent ever, especially considering that each proc gets immediate damage from IP and refreshes your DP stack.

Murder seems PvP oriented to me, but it of course depends what kind of mob the bosses are. If they fall into the appropriate category, then 4% damage is not insignificant. Imp SnD is only potentially worthwhile if it improves the maximum duration that your eviscerate refreshes your SnD to. And Relentless Strikes seems..kind of worthless. It has been must-have for a long time, so they nerfed it to 20% of what it was.

Combat (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0252351100200150232100521251005320005300000 00000000000002000000000000000000000000000): This one is a little more tricky, and I'm starting to come around to the idea that Mutilate will be the way to go. This spec assumes that you don't have an Arms warrior in the raid to provide 2% physical damage to the raid. The options here are Imp Eviscerate, Vile Poisons, and Improved Poisons in Assassination, Killing Spree in Combat, and Relentless Strikes in Subtlety.

I'm not convinced Killing Spree will be worthwhile for PvE, but I've been wrong before. In WotLK, I don't think the combat specc'd rogue will use eviscerate any more often than I do now, which is very rarely on bosses, so I don't think Imp Eviscerate is worthwhile. The poison talents aren't bad, but maybe not as good as they are for Mutilate since you don't get two poisons for one. Relentless Strikes also looks mediocre but maybe better than Vile Poisons..? I doubt it, but I'm not really sure.

[Jackal]

I've been reading here and there lately and it keeps directing me to Mutilate also. I Will continue to research more to make sure that that is the route I will be taking since I've always been combat swords since the beginning of this toon and nothing else. Anything I find to solidify our decision in the optimum pve talent spec for WotLK, I will post here.

[Aurorawind]

It has gotten easier to figure this out. They've put in training dummies in Dalaran where you can run DPS tests and go over your logs. The only thing I've seen bad about them is they have no armor, but we've been promised boss armor ones soon.

[Nortibiry]

Too bad we never see any good daggers drop.

[Kastus]

We have had the Shard of Azzinoth drop, along with numerous Tracker's Blades.
Wha-chyu-talkina-bout Norty?

[Etrigana]

I believe its called sarcasm Kastus. You should try it, I hear it tastes good.

-Etri

[Kastus]

With all due respect, oops.

[Aurorawind]

New glyph in last night's patch that gives sinister strike a 40% chance to give you a combo point.

[Dshiva]

The Combat tree was just buffed last patch(19th) on BETA.

Aggression - Moved from Tier 6 to Tier 5. Increased from 3 points to 5. Now increases the damage of your Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Eviscerate abilities by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Endurance - Now also increases your total stamina by 2/4%.

Blood Poisoning renamed Savage Combat - Now also increases your total attack power by 2/4%.

Vitality - has been changed now increases your Energy renegeration rate by 3/6%.


The Vitality change is the big one, with energy no longer 'ticking' but rather regening, with combat potency, should mean a combat rogue will never be in need of energy. It puts, in theroy, combat back ahead of assassation DPS raid wise, but only if the dont change the talents yet again.

If they dont change im looking at something like

Lv 70 - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebZMgVo0fzEbu0xRox

Lv 80 - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboLZMgVo0fzEbu0xRtx

[attic]

I'm betting daggers will be top DPS.

Assassination is so top-heavy with talents that give crit that I'm not sure where to go for level 80.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ecoeToi0ofzZ0xV0xZx

[Jackal]

I'm still leaning towards combat swords but maces look so good too. Anyone know if any math has been done in comparison to the armor penetration of maces versus the extra hit from sword spec?

[Jackal]

Haven't had time to play in the PTR's to try it out.

[Jackal]

Gonna have to reinstall PTR's on my computer again since I fucked something up in the files. Anyway, 2 specs I will be trying out and adjusting accordingly (if needed) will be http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eb0xZMgVb0rzEbu0xRtx Combat Swords and http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxf0exoVboIuVo0gV0oZxb Mutilate. Those are the two that caught my attention while looking around and want to see what kind of DPS I'm looking at. Any inputs are appreciated.

[Jackal]

Correction: I will be delving into parts of it. Would be nice if I could try them out at L80 to see the outcome.

[attic]

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxf0exoVboIuVo0gV0oZxb Mutilate.Do you need both Cut to the Chase and Improved Slice and Dice? Those seems like an either/or deal to me. I guess it depends on the rotation.

[Bharrai]

It looks like Imp SnD will be a filler talent at best, seeing as so far evis refreshing the duration doesn't seem to be affected by the talent.
I am sad however to see a 23/43/5 build out DPSing a 51/20/0 or a 1x/5x/0 build. Shiv glyph FTL. And I really don't think that eviscerate will have a spot in raiding, just like it doesn't now. Hunger for Blood will be the new imp SnD (ramp up pre-fight, maintain every 30 seconds for 9% dmg buff!), with some variation on a 5s/3s/5r cycle, or some other worldly mut cycle like 3-5s/5m/5r or possibly even throwing in envenom.

Personally I am interested in playing with sub, and will probably stay sub for most of Naxx, as ShS will have some nice advantages in the 25 man version. Mutilate or combat will then be my spec of choice moving into T8 realms, probably mutilate depending on the tier bonuses.

(Edit: Actually I am liking the 3s/5m/1e/5r) And I would get imp SS, not imp SnD Jackal, drop the 1 point in CQC and grab vigor.

[Jackal]

Just noticed what I did. Thanks Bharrai. I was transferring the info from MMO Champion Calculator to Wowhead. I will fix it when I get the chance. Thanks.

[Assault]

I don't understand why eviscerate wouldn't have a spot in raiding for a mutilate build. I don't really subscribe to the idea of strict cycles, but it seems to me you would open with whatever, immediately hit SnD and from there on out you eviscerate a) when SnD is about to run out or b) when you have 5 combo points and rupture doesn't need to be refreshed. Otherwise do rupture at 5 points. Refresh Hunger for Blood when it's about to run out.

I don't understand what else you would use those combo points for other than envenom, which I don't see being a better choice than eviscerate unless they somehow improve envenom or the mob has ridiculously high armor or the mob is seconds from death. I don't understand why using combo points/energy to refresh SnD in a "3-5s/5m/5r" cycle is in any way preferable to using combo points/energy for a skill that does damage in addition to refreshing SnD.

[Bharrai]

I'd rather envemon to refresh my MH DP on 1cp rather than lose the stack. Also evis has not been, and so far will not be worth the DPE (imo at least, I am not impressed with the new ranks damage). Using 2x1.3 daggers, DP/IP would be my preferred raiding spec, with a very strict cycle, as HfB is 1 extra GCD to watch.

But I do subscribe to a very strict cycle anyway.

[attic]

Historically rupture has been better damage than evis. I might alternate between rupture and envenom.

[Assault]

I'd rather envemon to refresh my MH DP on 1cp rather than lose the stack.

I don't understand what this means.

Using 2x1.3 daggers, DP/IP would be my preferred raiding spec

Seems that 1.3 speed daggers would really nerf your mutilate damage to me... And if you were going to use envenom I'd think you'd have to use DP/DP to replace all the DP you're removing with envenom.

You can talk all you want about eviscerate being less damage per energy than envenom, but that doesn't really mean jack when you lose lots of damage in the form of deadly poison ticks every time you use envenom.

[Jackal]

Here is my proposed Mutilate spec for L80 with the minor change added. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxfoexoVboIumoMxV0oZxb

[Aurorawind]

Have you guys been taking into the account the changes from various glyphs in your builds?

I've been reading to understand more rogue theory, but I haven't seen mention and wondering if I just missed it.

[Jackal]

I haven't read up much on the glyphs yet so I can't comment on them. On my post above, I'm also looking to possibly change 2/2 Murder to 2/2 Fleet footed if it becomes apparent that once we start dealing with more undead and less humanoids, giants, beasts and dragonkin, that the 30% duration reduction of all movement impairing effect and 15% speed will be a boost to dps just like having Cat's Swiftness to boots does. Any opinion's? Haven't seen any enchant's that may be better than Cat's Swiftness for the xpac yet so if there is please let me know.

[Bharrai]

Seeing as mut is normalized to AP, the 1.3s will be quicker for re-stacking DP with my MH. IP OH for more insta dmg (especially with the broken shiv glyph,) and it should have said SnD not DP stack, sorry.

The glyphs are kinda off kilter atm, as I was saying earlier, because with the shiv glyph a 23/43/5 build is out dpsing a pure mut or pure combat build. This is not impressive seeing as shiv right now is not worth using, even to refresh a DP stack (yes, I got it right this time.) The damage done is not comparable to letting the DP tail off and SSing into your next cycle, allowing the OH to re-apply the poison, plus that energy loss (even with a 1.3 dagger) easily throws your cycle off.

[Trikstar]

After testing out specs on PTR I found that mutilate was much more viable than combat for dps. Since you dont need to be behind the target you should never have to use SS. Just start with a shiv, SnD, mutilate to 5 combo points and eviscerate. Although envenom would put out more damage as a finishing move it is probably more beneficial to leave the 5 stacks up and ticking than to redo stacks every time you start a new rotation. SnD will never drop for either finisher though.

Also I found that stacking Hunger for Blood to 3 stacks at the beginning of a cycle helps tremendously and gives your tank time to get a good lead on aggro. When time runs out on you Hunger for Blood you only need to reapply it once to take it back to a 3 stack maxed timer.

Here is my proposed lvl 80 spec. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ecoeMoiroIzAo0tVbZxb

You could take the 2 points out of Endurance and the Imp SnD and add it to Close Quarters Combat and this will essentially have the same effect as Master Poisoner.

Also since this is such a high crit build I will be using 1.8 speed daggers to maximize damage.

[Trikstar]

I also had a question regarding hit and haste. I have been picking up some haste gear and was wondering what the "must have" hit is before you start using haste. Right now I am at a comfortable 301 hit which gives me very little miss on boss types. Should I drop some for haste? Just curious.

[Kastus]

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ecoeToVboIuAo0xV0xZ0b
Stop. Being. Silly.

[Assault]

I like that one Kastus, except I'd remove the point in Vigor (that's a PvP talent imo) and put it in Improved Poisons. The two points in Murder is also obviously potentially mediocre, but there's not a super great place to put those.

On an unrelated note I'm curious about the Turn the Tables talent. Chance to critically hit with "combo moves"? I wonder if that means "finishing moves," in which case that's not a great talent. I guess I'd prolly still take it considering you will be using envenom/eviscerate as mutilate spec but..I can't imagine those are going to be a very big proportion of anyone's damage. The only option I guess would be taking points out of there to put in Relentless Strikes.

[attic]

That looks very similar to my planned build. But I'd need to look at some math to determine if HfB and CttC are better than Relentless Strikes. Vigor is a good talent if there will be any energy pooling - though I think that won't be needed with the change to Find Weakness.

Assault, I think combo moves are actions that generate a combo point.

[attic]

I also had a question regarding hit and haste. I have been picking up some haste gear and was wondering what the "must have" hit is before you start using haste. Right now I am at a comfortable 301 hit which gives me very little miss on boss types. Should I drop some for haste? Just curious.I think, for raiding, that you want to get your +hit first and then go for haste afterwards.

[Mithwen]

I just read ... gouge will now scale with AP. Rejoice!

[Trikstar]

I think, for raiding, that you want to get your +hit first and then go for haste afterwards.

Yeah I could definitely be hard hit capped if I regemmed some things and swtiched some gear, but my current group makeup allows me to stay around 300 and be fine. I was just wondering if there was a magic number.

[Trikstar]

I think for mutilate build I will be twisting my rotation to take full advantage of my SnD.

For example: 1s/5e/5r/5e...etc

It will take you a much shorter time than 20 seconds to build 5 combo points so why waste that extra SnD when you can just rupture and build up to 5 cp again? Havent tried this yet, I'll leave some imput when I do.

[Assault]

I don't think there is any "requirement" for hit or haste. They both increase dps. I think one point of hit is better than one point of haste (though I'd have to check the spreadsheet to tell for sure) but there's never an occasion where you're making that one-for-one tradeoff, so that's a moot point.

The tradeoff is always, like..19 agility and 11 hit rating versus 26 attack power and 20 haste rating. Which is better? I have no idea. No option but to check the spreadsheet, really. I certainly do not think that, like, if you're under 300 hit rating then you ALWAYS take the option that includes hit rating. That's not how it works. The goal is to increase your dps as much as possible, not to maintain some artificial stat optimization.

[Kastus]

I like that one Kastus, except I'd remove the point in Vigor (that's a PvP talent imo) and put it in Improved Poisons. The two points in Murder is also obviously potentially mediocre, but there's not a super great place to put those.

On an unrelated note I'm curious about the Turn the Tables talent. Chance to critically hit with "combo moves"? I wonder if that means "finishing moves," in which case that's not a great talent. I guess I'd prolly still take it considering you will be using envenom/eviscerate as mutilate spec but..I can't imagine those are going to be a very big proportion of anyone's damage. The only option I guess would be taking points out of there to put in Relentless Strikes.

I think to revise this.
My original, I realized something.
Points OUT of vigor AND murder, into IMP evis.
15% dmg to a move Im using OFTEN now? Fweeeeeeee.

[Trikstar]

I don't think there is any "requirement" for hit or haste. They both increase dps. I think one point of hit is better than one point of haste (though I'd have to check the spreadsheet to tell for sure) but there's never an occasion where you're making that one-for-one tradeoff, so that's a moot point

I was referring more to when spell haste gems become just haste gems. Doesnt really matter, I'm just going to gem agi and not care until I hit 80.

[Bharrai]

Sinister Strike Combat currently stands slightly below mutilate. The currently accepted build at 70 I believe is 5/51/5. For stat weightings, etc., consult a spreadsheet that has the new talents, as I haven't looked into it that much. I'm not sure about the relative rankings of Sword/Sword, Fist/Sword, Fist/Dagger, Fist/Fist, and so on.

Mutilate currently stands as top DPS. The currently accepted build is 51/5/5. Weapon choice is currently Slow MH, Fast OH, with DP/IP as the poisons, and Envenom as the CttC finisher of choice. Again, I'm not too sure about stat weights and such.


Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t26242-rogue_pve_dps_wotlk_discussion/p122/

Edit: Much more reading down the line and the weapon choices are quite the heated debate. EoO seems to be a good one, tho FoK/FoK is up there (funny how shiv/shard don't even compare to EoO.) Oh, and 4+n/4+n/4+r makes me toes tingle! Balancing HfB, SnD, Rupture with a 3 finisher cycle is going to make rogues fun.

[Bharrai]

Here is my opinion on hit vs. haste currently:
Gem for hit as combat (combat potency) or gem for crit/agi/ap for mutilate. Mutilate needs only spell hit cap to really make a difference, so anything over the yellow cap does not benefit as much as it would a combat rogue. (Keeping in mind that +hit in WotLK may be a whole new world of pain, or ignored.)
Haste for mutilate is nice, seeing as you are going for crit, hasted attacks can crit and proc poisons.

I personally would gem Agi/Crit using Haste only for decent socket bonuses.

[Trikstar]

Mutilate has been nerfed since the PTR and even in 25 man buffs I could only manage about 1800 dps on Teron Gorefiend while the combat rogue was up around 2200 dps. Throughout the course of the night my DPS dropped as I was continually energy starved and getting pissed about it. It is a great spec for leveling and pvp, but I just don't think it has what it takes for raiding; combat is still better.