Expose armor (again)

[Nortibiry]

Interesting post, might be something to keep in mind for dps races etc. Short version: 85tps less from the tank, 2% more dps from physical damage.

http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/theory-ar...-revisited.html (http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/theory-articles/35644-expose-armour-vs-sunder-armour-revisited.html)

[Vand]

I have no idea how much of a decrease 85tps represents. However, depending on exactly who comes on any given night, up to 10 of our DPS do not do physical damage, and would therefore gain no benefit from expose armor. As far as threat goes, I can only speak from personal experience, but I am very often having to walk an increasingly tight line to make sure I do not pull aggro, and have been having to use invis more and more frequently, which probably decreases my dps by more than 2%. Making that line even tighter sounds like a bad idea to me.

The one exception is Archimonde. On that fight, the melee do a huge portion of the total damage due to the ranged DPS having to spend so much time out of range. So threat is really not an issue for casters on that fight, and anything that could be done to increase the melee damage would be great. CoR, anyone?

[Assault]

I don't think it's a terrible idea, and I'm sure that me or Jackal could easily fit imp expose into our specs and rotation.

To be honest I don't think the 85 tps would be an issue AT ALL other than in a few fights (Bloodboil for instance). I'm increasingly starting to attack almost immediately after Nort does and still never manage to break 90% threat or so. And even if I did creep up toward the 110% threat mark on him I could always vanish.

I keep half an eye on the threat meter on most fights just to see how close people are toeing the line and it seems that usually people are WAY behind Nort, even high-threat classes like spriests and dps warriors. I define "WAY behind" as "in little to no danger of pulling aggro," like, if halfway into the fight you've only managed to climb up to 80% of Nort's threat, I think there's no way you're going to pull aggro.

[phewl]

regarding threat, i typically have to throttle myself in earlier stages of fights because of my heavy hitting crit spec, i also don't know how -85tps would affect that. after the fight has gone on for some time, hitting 110% threat is pretty uncommon given that i have to lifetap/move/perform duties in most fights, and have soulshatter as a backup. Is it possible for hunters to do misdirection back to back on boss pulls to boost nort's initial threat? I can't see it being an inconvenience and if its possible, it would be nice.

[Aurorawind]

we almost always double MD

[Raptace]

Personally I wait for about 10k threat or so to dps, and the only fight have aggro issues is Bloodboil, but other than that, I don't catch Nort, rather I can't catch him.

[Mithwen]

I can't iceblock or soulshatter to drop threat so all the rest of yas should be quiet. Yarrr.

The melee dps do a hugely respectable amount of raid dps. Increasing their damage on fights would be great. If we casters can't hold it in our pants long enough to start our dps then losing 85 tps isn't gonna make a diff. As Rap mentioned, giving that head start on threat is way more important than the rate at which Nort gains threat ... although I don't generally wait for 10k myself. It does vary from fight to fight.

Since Nort pointed out that the expose armor would be used on fights that are DPS races ... that'd NOT be Bloodboil except for maybe during the insignificance time period ... which would like be a waste of 5 cp for such a short time period.

Thanks for noticing I've learned how to control my threat, Assault. I can try to pull aggers to prove I can if you want. :) (Actually, I don't think I could pull a mob off Nort even if I tried really really hard. He's teh awesome.)

Oh and depending on how long you hold yourself back on a fight, a difference of 85 tps could be like oh ... I dunno ... 850 threat? 10 seconds is a long time to wait to push that shadowbolt button.

Giving the rogues a job to do that smells faintly of buffing raid damage would be awesome. They've been leeches for far too long. amirite?

Pika.

[Nortibiry]

For the most part TPS should be equivalent to DPS for, well, DPS... there'll be some differences based on buffs/debuffs/heals whatever (in particular for, say, shadow priests).

I'm not sure what exactly is meant by "the start" of the fight or when 10k threat is hit, but for what it's worth this would be something that could come in at most... say... 11 or 12 seconds into the fight, since it's important that the first five devastates proc sunder armor for awesome initial threat (well, as awesome as I can make it anyways), and maybe a little longer depending on how nervous I am about getting thunderclap and commanding shout up fast, incoming rage, and that kind of thing. We could just as easily swap from sunder to expose armor at some arbitary later time too (4% bonus execute damage anyone?)

Also this is definitely not something that could happen on every fight, I just wanted to bring it up in case we run into a really rough enrage timer (without threat capped dps) down the road. On anything like bloodboil where I have to offtank it's totally not an option because I have to be more careful with my threat/rage and rely on devastate, and I'm sure there are other settings I'm just not thinking of. I definitely wouldn't advise we change anything or respec just now, just wanted to get it on the table so it was on people's minds, and solicit some feedback (which has been awesome).

It is nice to hear that threat is mostly OK. I'd be curious to here any more details on initial threat or how long people are having to wait, I know the hunters are doing their part but maybe I can think of some other way to step things up initially depending on what you all say.

[Vand]

I'd be curious to here any more details on initial threat or how long people are having to wait, I know the hunters are doing their part but maybe I can think of some other way to step things up initially depending on what you all say.[/b]
First of all, Nort, you really are an awesome tank. I usually do not find myself having to wait any more time than it takes for me to get into position and you to get the boss in position, certainly never more than five secons. I do very often find myself the top on the threat meter (well, top dps, below you), and so there are some situations that I am finding myself somewhat threat limited. This mostly occurs in single-target situations like Gorefiend and Winterchill. I do have invis, though, so it is not a big deal, except when I get even a single point of raid damage right after I hit invis (because any damage cancels invis). When that has happened, I have had to basically sit on my hands for a little while (10-15 seconds) until you've re-established a substantial lead.

The only fight where I find myself waiting a significant amount of time is Bloodboil, where I basically do nothing other than ensure the scorch debuff is fully stacked until the first insignificance period. But that is just the nature of that fight, not a comment on any tank's capabilities.

So I guess my initial reaction to your post was a knee-jerk reaction of me not wanting to find myself threat limited any more than I already am. In the end, though, what is important is maximizing RDPS, not any individual's DPS.

On the subject of increasing RDPS, something that I have read on EJ is a standard practice in most top raids is the use of CoR. From what I have read, that increases physical DPS fairly substantially (by much more than you lose from one less CoA/CoD) while increasing the damage taken by the tank by a very marginal amount. It seems that would be a net benefit on any fight where our primary challenge is something other than keeping Nort alive.

[Lad]

If threat is what is hindering your dps vand, you need to start doing some stuff like enchanting your cloak.

[phewl]

your threat generation is just fine, the only reason i allow for a bigger buffer zone(at least 10K initial threat) is because of the nature of my damage coming from crits which are 200% damage. My threat can easily spike up from a chain of lucky(unlucky?) crits, over coming 110% your threat, when your threat value is low. Putting that expose armor up when you have like 50K threat or some time later wouldn't likely make me have to throttle(maybe if its a turreting dps fight) even if i was right on your tail.

for your information, if it was a fight where i was right behind you in threat, my crits can range from 5000 to 9500 dmg on average, producing 3000 to 5700 threat(Dmg * 0.6). so after you have hit the 57000 threat range i can safely(?) still throw a shadowbolt even when i am at equal threat value as you and not pull aggro(even in the event of a crit). do you have any idea what your average TPS generation is during a fight. currently giving you the buffer 10K threat and using soul shatter when needed i don't really have any threat problems though.

i am not sure how your threat generation will scale as you acquire Black temple/Mount hyjal gear but i know my damage and therefore threat is going to pick up quite a bit as i acquire more gear that helps my talent spec. i have read of warlocks having to throttle themselves after they have their "endgame" set from BT/MH, on fights that only involve them standing still and spamming shadowbolt(turret fights).

without having heroism in my group anymore though i hardly have any issues in catching up with you on threat after the fight has gone on for some time. Most fights have some sort of ability that means i have to move and therefore stop gaining threat. Also the addition of the shaman to the tank group has greatly helped threat generation, at least from what i can see from watching threat meters.

Finally since my threat is so random I will always give you a buffer zone in the beginning of the fight. My initial threat is not something that can be easily analyzed and averaged, as i could by luck start the fight off a string of 5 shadowbolt crits(doubling my threat), not see any or see some random pattern. So rather then gamble with attacking earlier i will be safe and conservative. Although any extra threat you can generate initially allows me to jump into the fight quicker.

[Slamina]

The guy in the article is theorycrafting alot of mechanics that may be accurate or innacurate, but ultimately it's adding more armor ignore for the entire raid which means threat wise it'll give a bit more threat for tanks but a lot more threat for melee.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-p2GoLIggc7xJFZegWVhDA
This is my favorite spreadsheet, I love it to death. Basically it shows you what the % of damage increase you get based on your armor ignore and your target's current armor.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/
Like the forums say, most boss's have 6200 or 7700 armor.



6200AC Boss for a tank with 2600 Sunders + 0ArPen=approx 17.78%

6200AC Boss for a tank with 2600 Expose +470ArPenBonus(ImpExpose)=approx 22.13%



6200AC Boss for DPS with 2600 Sunders + 1500ArPen=approx 31.85%

6200AC Boss for DPS with 2600 Expose + 470ArPen Bonus(ImpExpose) +1500ArPen=37.32%




Ultimately ImpExposeArmor will help a tank with 0ArPen by giving 4.35% more physical damage. This should help raise the threat against non-melee. Likewise ImpExposeArmor will help a Melee DPS with 1500ArPen already on their gear by giving 5.47% more physical damage, which adds more threat against a tank.


Often times rogues have the highest DPS against a boss as it is though, so not sure if making them use combo points for this would help. It's kind of like half an executioner enchant for the whole raid, kind of nice i guess.

[Nortibiry]

The guy in the article is theorycrafting alot of mechanics that may be accurate or innacurate, but ultimately it's adding more armor ignore for the entire raid which means threat wise it'll give a bit more threat for tanks but a lot more threat for melee.

The catch with (warrior) tanks is that devastate threat is tied directly to the number of sunder armor debuffs on the mob, which is why my threat would end up dropping slightly overall, even with the physical damage increase. Of course this problem would go away with a bear or paladin tank... man am I glad they keep gimmicky spell reflect fights in raids.

[Raptace]

If threat is what is hindering your dps vand, you need to start doing some stuff like enchanting your cloak.

QFT! This goes along with the post Etri put up about enchants, ever since Subtlety has been out, its been on every cloak I've worn for pve by the next day, and I've gone through 3 different cloaks since I've been in Fulcrum. Is it really that hard to go and farm some mats to do a simple enchant? Especially as a mage, thats kind of ridiculous to me to a dps person in this raid that needs a enchant like that this far into the game.

But back to the topic, my post would be very identical to Phewl's, as we are the same spec for the most part. The lucky/unlucky crit string hits very close to home there. I've had fights like Gorefiend before where I wait for the 10k threat, I throw out 3-4 shadowbolts, and I'm so close to going past Nort that I have to soul shatter, things seems to be fine from there, but a string of crits that reach up to the 7-10k dmg per shadowbolt really have the possibility of getting threat up very, very fast. Any fight where I can stand still and just cast, I will have to soul shatter at some point usually. But any fight where we have to move for any reason, threat is no problem at all. Unless there is some sort of boss aggro dump. I seem to notice that like... well with Supremus for instance, when he gets out of the kite phase, the threat dumps out, then its just a point of waiting again for threat to be established. I have no complaints only praise about your threat Nort, you do extremely well.