Raid marks on trash

[Nortibiry]

I imagine most of you have noticed I've been mucking around with raid marks on trash pulls, here is the deal on what is going on:

In ZA, we've started using X to indicate the next DPS target. Before pulls we mark skull and X and use it to determine tanks, and mid pull I move X around to indicate the next active dps target, generally when the current one is around 50-25%, so that the dps can get a head start. This is important because most of my threat is single target and I need to know where to put it. It's also nice because it lets the dps roll over to new targets quickly (and DoT up both targets), making the pulls go faster.

We'd like to start using this in the 25 man raids, although it is probably going to be a little more complicated. What I'm thinking is, pulls will be marked initially as they are now. Once we've got things sorted out and people have their CC targets, I'll use X to mark my next dps target, and Seld will be given another shape (probably square) to mark the next target he is going to be tanking. 90% of the time DPS will probably be able to move between X (or the former X if it's not quite dead and the mark has been moved) and square (ditto). The idea is that the marks tell you where to put your attention next, not that you should immediately switch targets.

The benefits of this are more dps on more targets, since you'll know where the threat is going, and hopefully less pain for the CC classes, since you'll know when a tank is on your target (it's marked with an X or square) and can stop worrying about renewing sheep.

One scenario that isn't covered is when something has to die out of turn, usually when something nasty can no longer be CCed. I'd suggest having Assault or someone mark these targets with skull, which can generally mean "kill now". Obviously some communication will be required to make sure that a tank is on it.

The only real downside I can see is that this requires a little more communication (although really most of that should be covered by the shapes) and a little more creative interpretation from the DPS on which target they should be focussed on. I think it'll be a good change in the end, it'll let us move faster and deal with on the fly decisions smoother. But, what do the rest of you think?

[Aurorawind]

Here's what I've seen going on so far.

Target Skull, Skull dies

Target X, X dies

I mark Square, but an X pops up somewhere else (say a former diamond) and the DPS splits for the rest of the fight trying to sort out targets. I think this stems from the Vent instruction "It's never wrong to attack an X."


I like this idea and I think it's great, the drawback I see is if we kill an X, and another mob is marked with it quickly, the DPS could split to it. I'm not sure if people are keeping track of "I just killed an X so I should look for a square" and vise versa.

I'll do my best to mark appropriately and people following the Hunter's Mark should solve 90% of the issues, I just wanted to toss out some thoughts there.

[Nortibiry]

My post was more what I'd like to see happening than what has been happening, in particular we haven't told Seld to go ahead and start marking what he's tanking yet which is why squares aren't popping up all over the place.

The key change is that X/square will mean upcoming dps targets, and current dps targets will have their mark cleared before they are completely dead (so that the mark can be used for what's coming up next).

[Aurorawind]

I was just looking at what has been happening and extrapolating what may be a concern going forward with the new procedure.

My main concern is if say...X dies and we go on square. If a new X pops up quick enough, it may cause target confusion to those not paying attention to the Hunter's mark. I'm certain we can work through it, just putting it on the list of "possible issues to think about" while vetting the tactic.

[Malicyte]

Honestly, It works well in ZA. DPS just has to be sure that they are eliminating their DPS target, before switching to the next appropriate target. So just finish the job and things will run smooth:D

[Mithwen]

My main concern is if say...X dies and we go on square. If a new X pops up quick enough, it may cause target confusion to those not paying attention to the Hunter's mark.

Yeah, this is Nort's point. I'll go a step further and say: if he's paying attention, why isn't the dps? We should be paying attention not least because it elevates the game from pushing your 2 button for 4 hours straight and making butt jokes. It's not hard to tell that a mark has been moved and that the X that just popped up hasn't been there all along and shouldn't be getting much more than dots put on it. However, this ISN'T what was happening the other day when we were trying to use it. Every time I moved from the previous dps target to Nort's X, the X was already mostly dead.

I'll add that I *don't* follow hunter's marks. As a debuffer, most of the time I'm looking at my dot timers and health bars and I don't look over the top of the mob's head. I don't think it's the hunter's job to be marking stuff and doing target management anymore, anyway. You guys are dps like the rest of us and there's no reason you need to try to think for us. :)

P

[Aurorawind]

I agree with you Pika, that DPS should be paying attention. I don't know if people weren't paying attention, or what, when we field tested it. But since the issues came up then I thought I'd list that as something that we may need to specifically address when we go to this, that's all.

And I am discussing direct damage DPS on this, I don't really have experience with DOT based DPS so I'm not trying to say anything about those classes or tactics.

I would disagree on the marks though in a couple of ways. I wouldn't say we're doing target management, we're just marking in the order that Assault has laid out the targets. I would say though that the mark is a useful tool, especially in fights where the mobs are close together, and tanks are smashing right and left to build threat all over. Just looking at the tank window leads to split DPS that way. People also get distracted all the time, it's a very useful tool for figuring out, at a glance, which one to kill when both tanks are on a target and both marks are up.

I hope this method leads to smoother targeting, but the reality is we're still getting alot of incidents of split DPS every night.

[Nortibiry]

Just to be clear I've backed off on doing this for the week and will maybe try to start properly next week, we'll see how things go. So try to focus on what I proposed, rather than what happened when I was kind of playing around with the marks without being really clear to the raid and with the other tank not doing it at all :)

I typed out a huge essay on this but rereading the thread I think that most of the concerns are people who aren't paying attention might get confused, and really I think the simplest work around is for people to either pay attention or not lay into the first thing they tab target without taking a moment to figure out what's going on. The trash pulls really aren't that complicated trust me it is possible to remember what was in the pack and what's been killed ;) We could put a lot of work into creating a raid environment where people can watch tv while they hit an assist macro and spam attacks but I don't think it's healthy for us as a group, and trash is a lot more fun when you are pushing yourself in my opinion.

[edit] That said I do appreciate the feedback and encourage anyone else with thoughts to post soon so we can get going on this next week.

[Chasidy]

I think this is a good idea and I agree that we can be smart enough to pay attention I personally think it will be easier to keep track of targets this way.